An interesting conversation came up today when i had a pup enquiry and it turned ou that this family hadnt had a dog....ever...before!! Now my instant reaction was thankyou and goodbye as my breed is very specialised and not in my opinion, for the novice owner....but....then I wondered about this line of thought. What if being a complete novice nmeant you had no pre conceived ideas about how the dog should be trained as you had nothing to compare it to....maybe this could be a good thing! Maybe a complete novice wouldnt find all the weird foibles of my breed to be "weird" because they had never known differently........likewise all the mud and slobber, the hunting instinct,  the special care re feeding and the possible male dominance......maybe these things would not be such a hurdle to people who had not experienced "normal" dog ownership   What do you think?

I think it absolutely depends on the individual. Personally, I think a first time dog owner could make a great job with most breeds, so long as they really understand what they are getting themselves into and the level of commitment it will take. The problem with too many first timers is that they assume that they won't make the same mistakes that other people make, and they always imagine that somehow they won't encounter any of the problems that experienced hands warn them about, or if they do then they will be able to handle them better than other people.

A few doggy years down the line, I now think completely the opposite. I know that if an experienced breeder warns me about something to do with their breed, then I have to take that warning seriously, and will listen to all the advice and ask for help when I need it.

The difficulty for a breeder is spotting the people who can handle a difficult breed from the fakers, and unfortunately it is too easy just to say no to everyone who hasn't had a similar breed before.

I have to admit my very firm rule is I NEVER sell a Malinois to a first time dog owner. They have to have dog experience, and of similar breeds ideally -ex GSD owners for instance. I was taken aback and almost didn't cope when getting my first Mali and that was after 20 years of owning dogs then, I daren't think what would happen to a first timer LOL. I see your point, but.....no. I wouldn't dare! (Having said that, there IS a first time dog owner with a mali who has become VERY successful in agility so has proved it CAN be done. )

Everyone has got to start somewhere and if the family are the type that would accept your advice and guidance and let you mentor them in the breed then I don't see why they shouldn't be considered for a puppy.  If however, they're the sort of family that wouldn't consider any kind of post purchase relationship with you and wouldn't accept any advice on bringing up the dog then I'd say 'no'.

Does that make sense?

We have all been first time dog owners at some time. Sometimes people who have dogs already are not suitable owners. If they seem nice people and are prepared to learn and have the necessary space and time I don't think there's a problem. Just warn them of all the downsides to owning your breed, let them meet your dogs, let them see the slobber, mud etc for themselves and if they still want a pup and you are happy to let them have one why not give them a chance.

Liz

My husband and I are novice dog owners as well, and got our puppy only a couple of months ago. We researched all breeds that we liked extensively, and even went to Crufts so we'd have a chance to meet all the dogs that were on our shortlist. In the end we decided on a Golden Retriever, as they are generally easy to train, good with everyone (especially kids), and seemed to be good choice for new dog owners.
If I was you I would ask the family why they have chosen your breed, and ask them lots of questions rather than telling them all about your breed yourself. This way, you can find out if they have done their homework and know what they are taking on. I would also ask them for details of their closest dog training facility, and if they have contacted them to enquire about puppy classes. I think for novice dog owners it is even more important to join dog classes, as the trainers can give them useful tips as to how to cope with unwanted behaviour as well as training. 

Not a dog example but I have to grin a bit.  A friend, when we were all just fresh out of school, successfully used a similar outlook to land a very good job.  The employer was looking for experience, that age old catch 22 of young job hunters.  Friend convinced the employer that his lack of job experience was a boon to the employer who could now mold him to his firm's way of thinking and doing things.  Friend came with none of the "we did it this way" baggage.  Friend offered the employer an empty slate.  Surely the same can be true of prospective dog owners?

> My husband and I are novice dog owners as well, and got our puppy only a couple of months ago. We researched all breeds that we liked extensively, and even went to Crufts so we'd have a chance to meet all the dogs that were on our shortlist. In the end we decided on a Golden Retriever, as they are generally easy to train, good with everyone (especially kids), and seemed to be good choice for new dog owners.
> If I was you I would ask the family why they have chosen your breed, and ask them lots of questions rather than telling them all about your breed yourself. This way, you can find out if they have done their homework and know what they are taking on. I would also ask them for details of their closest dog training facility, and if they have contacted them to enquire about puppy classes. I think for novice dog owners it is even more important to join dog classes, as the trainers can give them useful tips as to how to cope with unwanted behaviour as well as training.

Very sensible answer, as well as an excellent choice of breed for a new owner.

I think if someone has really made the effort knowing they wanted one of your pups and what was needed before you would allow it IE They had gone to shows with Bloodhounds, spoken to breeders and showers of blood hounds, read alot of books about the breed then I would say that with your expierance and help as a breeder being on hand they should be given a chance to have a puppy if they understood the breed and its needs as Im guessing someone let you have a blood hound puppy even tho you were a novice and we all need to start somewhere as long as you feel right about it of course!

But if they were just calling from the paper or something and had no real knowledge of the breed other then knowing what they look like and going on that basis then I would say no as they are a specialised breed
Same as with huskies so many people get them as they look gorgeous but dont actully know what they entail as a breed for a healthy and happy husky!

I guess another point is that if you have a blanket "no" to people with no doggy experience, people may just lie about it. There isn't really anything for them to lose. They probably wouldn't be able to fool you that they had experience with your breed, but may be able to pull it off if they said they had experience of other dogs from the same group.

Much better to encourage people to be honest and work with them, by explaining what they would need to be able to do in order to demonstrate to you that they have what it takes.

If that were ever to happen and for some reason I really believed in the people wanting a pup (I don't actually believe you should take chances with your pups, you should always feel confident in potential owners) but if in every way they ticked my boxes, if they knew from other sources the character, personality and exercise routines needed, then I may not be put off, if they were close enough to use me as their dog trainer, close friend and confident and keep me close to hand for any help in raising the pup.

If I did not have that guarantee that I would be their crutch for the first couple of years I wouldn't chance it.

But, if I had all that, then why not, as you say Sam, they could bring the pup on with your help to be a wonderful dog with a forever home.

Did these people want a pet or a dog to work/do trailing/ show? That would also have some bearing, they may have been interested in joining activities that your dogs love to do, people do have to start somewhere, I agree yours is a difficult breed, but if they were coherent to having you on board to work with them, I would certainly think about it.

Trouble is when people just firstly enquire, it takes a lot of time to get to know people and there are always others with experience beforehand so I guess folks like this won't get much of a look in.

I really think it depends on the person.
Allthough I have always had dogs, my Mastiff is not like any other dog I've had and training, feeding, exercise etc is all completely different.

Having always had dogs has built my confidence regarding my ability to train/handle them, if I hadn't been confident then I would be having problems with my mastiff, but most importantly I was willing to learn all about the breed and be fully aware of what I was taking on and not be afraid to ask for help/advice from the breeder/people experienced with the breed whenever I had a questions rather than try to figure things out for myself or simply treat my mastiff as I would have treated a different breed and end up doing things wrong.

sorry maybe i didnt make it clear...i was not asking the above because i was considering these people and wanted advise on them.....i was asking simply as an interesting thought that i had....nothing more!

i have had dogs in the past while growing up but had never owned a dog by myself when i went to see a newfoundland breeder with my husband after we moved into our house ( after living in a flat for 9 years . We always said we would get a dog when we had a house and garden.
The breeder was very reluctant to let me have one but thank god she did.
I now have three and yes it was hard work with the first one but i had great support from the breeder re; trainning etc.
I think you learn as you go on because the new pup was very quick to house train etc because i knew what to expect.

sorry maybe i didnt make it clear...i was not asking the above because i was considering these people and wanted advise on them.....i was asking simply as an interesting thought that i had....nothing more

I was only using you as an example lol sorry should have made that clear as well lol

But its a good thread to start as we were novices and are glad we were allowed a stafford as in my eyes their like your breed and specialised in terms of needs and stuff
We read so many books and I must have spoken to about 40 breeders lol

Rach, if you were dog novices, do you mind me asking what made staffies appeal to you? As a dog owner, I have met loads of lovely staffs and know they are a lovely breed, but when I was new to dogs I only knew what you saw on tv and I admit I used to walk the long way around to avoid them in the park. It would never have crossed my mind to get any kind of bull terrier when we were looking for our first.

Now, I would have loved a bloodhound, but OH said no to anything with a droopy face! We ended up with wheaten terriers. Love them to bits, but mad as a box of frogs and they were all born with springs in their legs. Kind of like Tigger. Definitely not a breed for the fainthearted, but definitely one for the bighearted.

> Rach, if you were dog novices, do you mind me asking what made staffies appeal to you?

Of course you can ask me

My boyfriend Matt had known a red stafford called Tyson before so he knew the breed and was head over heels for them for his temperament and friendlyness and Matt had said from the beginning he would only want a stafford.

For me I met our first Stafford when our friend got a puppy called Poppy and I immediatly fell in love with her and the breed and I can say 100% it was the only breed I trusted to allow to lick my face on the first meeting

I had seen them in the park and seen the news but I was attacked ked by a springer when I was little so know reps aint always what their cracked up to be.
It was their stance, expression and smile which I fell in love with and that tail that never stops wagging

I believe it depends on the individual and also their circumstances. I also think that the support they get from their breeder has alot to do with it as to whether they can cope. So many individual factors are involved though that no 2 cases are the same.

Both myself and OH grew up with dogs but it had never owned a dog on our own before and certainly did not have any experience with a husky, another specialised breed not recommended for a novice owner. Although nothing could prepare us for the combination of complete joy and utter chaos that owning a husky puppy brings we did our research beforehand (for a good year or 2) and once we got our pup took her to socialising and training classes, spoke to others with the breed and worked damn hard with her, as you would with any pup. We are now the very proud owners of 2 huskys and would not swap them for the world. My dogs are happy, well socialised, well stimulated and well exercised and what I believe to be good examples of the breed. Just because we are 'novice' owners does not mean our dogs our any worse or better off than those more experienced owners.
Could it not also be argued that all breeds are 'specialised' to some degree? Education is probably more important in some ways than experience.

Mmmm........a tabula rasa!  In THEORY I guess it could work if everything else about these hypothetical people was A+, but in my book it would be risky and it would depend who they are going to be talking to, who is going to influence them, where are they going to go for training and general advice etc etc.  They are only a tabula rasa on day one and then through interaction with other dog owners will become biased/influenced.  If they were local to you or another breed expert that you could 'buddy' them up with, then it may fly.  If on the other hand they were somewhere out on a limb and going to trot off to PAH for feeding guidance and the next door neighbour with an aged pet lab for training, then the chances of it going t*ts up would (in my mind)  be very high. 

I don't breed but I think I would want this hypothetical family to have spent a lot of time around the breed - my dogs or someone else's in order to convince me.  On balance, it would probably get the thumbs down from me unless they lived on my doorstep.