I'm at my wits end with my "dirty" collie and wonder if anyone can give me some advice?  I've had border collies for over 30 years without any problems.  I currently have an 11 year old border collie who is a real sweetheart and so good about everything, despite being rescued from a highly abusive owner at 10 months old.  She's just so perfect it's unbelievable. 
I bought a 2 year old rough collie dog from a local breeder in August 2006 for company for both of us, having had a rough collie bitch in the 1990's and therefore fully aware of the breeds needs in relation to coat etc.  But this dog is a very different kettle of fish to the bitch I owned!  He's an ex show dog and the breeder said she wanted rid as he would not go to stud for her and therefore redundant.  I bought him as a pet and not a show dog.  After a couple of months he quite clearly was interested in my (spayed) bitch and others so he was neutered.  No problem there.
But I was told he was housetrained and this appears to have been either a falsehood or he has changed his habits.  Like a lot of rough collies he is a nervous individual and took a long time to settle, no problem, I've been there before.  But after two years he is still unreliable with toiletng and in the last month has gotten worse - to the point where I MUST do something or the only alternative is to have him put down.  I don't feed him titbits, I keep him on the same food he has been on for two years, and yet he has periodic boughts of somewhat sloppy motion.  He totally refuses to use the garden, regardless of how long you leave him out and the fact that the border collie goes out there to toilet.
He'll go for hours and hours without having a wee (despite being walked in tantalising areas where other dogs have been) and then wee in the kitchen within minutes of being home.  He can sometimes go for a month or two without any mess in the house and then we have a month like this, where in one week I've lost count of the times he's poo'd and wee'd in the kitchen/utility room (thank goodness it isnot carpeted!).  I use the recommend pet poop cleaners, so hopefully no ammonia smells or anything else that says "you can toilet here!".
I keep him to a fairly regular routine as much as possible in relation to walks so he knows what times we'll be out and when he can toilet, even though I open the back door at other times in case he wants to go out.  He'll stay out in the garden quite happily most of the time and has in the past toileted out there, but not recently.
Within 6/9 months of bringing him home he'd had several bouts of diarrhoea and eventually it was determined he had Giardia.  We all got treated for that (yuck!) and since then nothing like the diarrhoea he previously had.  But there does seem to be a problem here and I cannot fathom it at all.  He can be good and clean for weeks on end and then we have this problem period.  This afternoon I came home after being out a few hours, opened the back door, border collie bitch went out and toileted.  He ran the other way and didn't want to go out.  BC came in, I closed the door, made a cuppa, went and sat down and was aware he had a funny look on his face.  Sure enough, he'd wee'd in the kitchen in those few minutes - grrrrr!  I do NOT tell him off as I have never caught him in midflow.  I just clean up and carry on as normal.  Try not to stress him about it, but I do feel I am getting stressed, it's not nice!
I don't even feel I can offer him up for re-homing with this problem as it would not be fair to pass him on like this. His obedience is almost non-existent, although he has learnt to sit and to come (albeit very slowly and in his own time).
Despite all this he is a very loving character and loves nothing more than a good old cuddle on the sofa.
I do feel I'm coming to the end of my tether, it's not nice going in to the kitchen and always feeling there's going to be a nasty surprise.  If he's been clean overnight (he has the run of the house together with my BC) I make a huge fuss and tell him how clever he is, same if I come home from being out and he's been clean.
HELP!!!!
Please don't suggest another visit to the vet.  Because of the current financial circumstances, I have no job, he has no insurance, and I've just shelled out £150 for him to have dental work so just don't have any money to spare.  I had to chose which one kept their pet insurance and obviously the older dog was the bigger risk in that regard.

I wonder if I should add his other problems, which he had when I got him, despite assurances to the opposite.
He does NOT travel well, despite being a show dog and winning loads and loads of rosettes (which I was given).  He throws up if you are not ultra smooth or on a motorway.  Roundabouts and curvy/bendy roads or a jerky driver are guaranteed to make him throw up (if I am driving I actually have learnt how to drive to overcome this and most times can manage A-B without him being sick now).
He obviously was never walked much outside, as was he was originally terrified of heavy traffic.  Much better now but still terrified of the bin lorry and pulls me all the way home if we happen to come across one.
Sadly a "loose" dog attacked him whilst we were all out walking (owners were there but way too slow in reacting to get their dog under control) and both my dogs were on the lead.  So now he is intent of being the one to make the first move if we come across another dog, although I am working on that and we are slowly getting there.
He really is a nice character in the house but has just never been used to being a pet and I do wonder if I'm doing the right thing.  He did "go" for me within the first few months of coming home but I fully understand it was my fault that time - I was just a bit too much "in his face" at that point and put too much pressure on him.  I put him out of the room for a while and I've never had the same problem since - in fact the action that provoked him is now something I can do with him with impunity so he has improved in many ways.
He is quite laid back in a lot of other ways.  He loves so many of my friends (from being initially very standoffish with absolutely everyone) and greets several of them in a very happy friendly way.

It sounds as if he may not have had a brilliant start in life which has probably added to any current problems, or is even the cause of them possibly.  I wonder how much, if any, training/socialisation etc he had in the past. Hmmm.

Re the training - you're used to BCs and of course they are "easy" to train as long as they have the right owner, by that I mean they learn fast. Most dogs do require being taught with more motivation, ie food rewards etc (not saying BCs don't but just that they are in some ways easier to train). If you are very used to BCs perhaps you are trying to train your rough collie in the same way and possibly need to learn newer methods in training? just a thought and meant kindly obviously

Re the toileting - I take it this is both urine and solids? Does he make a mess only when he seems to have an upset stomach (and possibly less control)?

Toilet problems can be caused by, amongst other things: medical conditions, age related problems, environmental change, incomplete house training/faulty learning, breed type, inadequate management, substrate preference, submissive urination, over excitement, fear, attention seeking, and anxiety. Medical problems related can include urinary tract disease, congenital or anatomical malformation, endocrine disorders and neurological abnormalities. Problems in relation to inappropriate defecation can include bacterial and viral conditions, obstructions, food allergies, age related problems, activity levels and changes in gastro intestinal motility.

The guidance given is that if there are no obvious medical reasons then the owner should be referred by the vet to a reputable behaviourist. Probably better to have an APBC member in this case, http://www.apbc.org.uk/

I wonder if the recent incident you describe about hiim not going out and then urinating in the kitchen is related to firework fears? Dogs often do not want to go into the garden during October/November/December/January - they may be able to smell the carbon in the air or hear fireworks. It's not uncommon.

Meanwhile, although I do think a reputable behaviourist is the best solution, you could try going out with the dog and rewarding him with some tasty food each time he goes. If he doesnt like to go in front of you then this may be caused possibly by his previous owner punishing him and some dogs will associate a human presence with toileting with punishment unfortunately, which means they won't "go" even if they are bursting.

Just a few initial thoughts anyway....

I cannot use a food based reward.  I've learnt to my own inconvenience that giving him anything other than the diet I've now got him used to upsets his tummy.  Hands up, I've just remembered I stupidly gave him a tiny bit of chicken skin last night- hence today's sloppy solid accidents in the kitchen =  how stupid can I be!  I know that he cannot tolerate chicken and I forgot yet again!  Have to admit I am not a fan of food based rewards and have always trained my BCs (Obedience standards) with consistent love and discipline.  I've not tried the same method with the rough because I know from the previous rough that you cannot "push" them like you can a BC, that they are slower learners and you have to be extremely patient and repetitive - hence he has learned sit pretty quickly for him (about 2 months LOL).
I think you have hit the nail on head re socialisation.  He did not know how to play in any way shape or form and has had to be shown.  He can now play ball, fetch, and has his own soft toys which he plays with (BC has her own toys and knows these do NOT include his soft toys)
Hand on heart I cannot say that he is dirty in the house only when he has an upset stomach.  During the past month we've only had the sloppies on a few occasions.  Quite often they have been solid solids.
Yes he WAS afraid of fireworks when he came, and still hates bangers.  But my BC is rock solid and will go out without any hesitation during the noisiest of fireworks, so he has learnt from her.  I totally ignored his pacing and nervy ways during the fireworks and he has now learned to tolerate most of them and noted that neither the BC nor I react in any way to the loud noises.  I do however wonder if you are right re the "smell" of them still in the air?  I have no sense of smell (lost it in a riding accident 4 years ago) so cannot tell what is going on in that regard.
He doesn't have a problem pooing in front of me and I go overboard telling him how good he is about it when he "goes" on a walk (my previous dogs have all been taught to go on command but I don't want to put any pressure on him so have not even tried to teach that command to him), and am rewarded by a very happy waggy tailed dog who understands just how good he has been  so that is not a problem.
You are probably right re the APBC but it's just bad timing, normally it would not have been a problem but at the moment finances are nowhere near what I need just to survive so I cannot think of that.  I want to do what's right for him, he's a love in so many ways, and I wish I understood why we seem to be "getting there" and then suddenly go backwards so massively.  However, now I think of my own stupidity yesterday with the chicken I can cope with today's problem!  I caused it - stoopid woman!
Very much appreciate your input.  Thank you!

hi dl  what are you feeding him?  and how many times a day?

> I cannot use a food based reward.  I've learnt to my own inconvenience that giving him anything other than the diet I've now got him used to upsets his tummy.  Hands up, I've just remembered I stupidly gave him a tiny bit of chicken skin last night- hence today's sloppy solid accidents in the kitchen =  how stupid can I be! 

You can use some of your dogs normal food as rewards, you don't have to deviate from his diet, extra tasty treats (chicken, cheese, liver etc) are much more helpfull if you are trying to lure a behaviour or gain the dogs focus in distractions, but plain 'ol dog-food will still help as a re-inforcer to good behaviour. My pup is 16 months old now, for the first 10 months I fed him nothing other than his food as treats, all his basic obedience and the cute little tricks he learnt at the start were all for a piece of dry dog kibble

My dog very rarely goes for a wee while out on a walk (he has to be really desperate to waste time on weeing!!!) and he has only ever pooped once on a walk, as soon as we're back from a walk I put him in the garden for 5 mins so he can do his 'business'. The same if he has not been to loo for ages, I'll take him out into the garden for a wee as sometimes he' much to lazy to go out on his own accord!

hi. what about taking him back to basics as if he were a small puppy and maybe crate training him? then when you are out hes confined and perhaps more reluctant to soil his space? i used the crate when i got my puppy earlier in the year and despite him being a hound and perhaps more difficult to train, he picked up house training in 3 days, very quick, and only 1 or 2 accidents since then.

I feed him James Wellbeloved kibble - Lamb & Rice Adult Maintenance with a tiny bit of sardine mixed in.  When I got him he had been fed on a very poor quality proprietary brand.  The breeder freely admitted she just put his food down and left him to it and he ate it gradually overnight.  As she had about 8 other dogs and they all got fed the same way how she knew if he ate it all is beyond me!  He was NOT interested in food at all when I got him and was reluctant to eat.  Vet checked his mouth and found nothing untoward (except need for a good clean - at TWO YEARS OLD!).  So I gradually introduced him to JW and put a little bit of fish in to it (I learned early on chicken upset his tum) to tempt him.  He is fed at teatime as this fits what I have always done with my BC and actually used to work great as his digestive system is really really slow and feeding him 5/6 p.m. means he is usually ready to poop on our morning walk at 7 a.m. He is a creature of habit and will poop in the same areas every time.  We have a couple of different walks we do for variety but I try to keep the morning walk the same every time so he can poop in the same spot.
I don't really want to crate him.  He is so sensitive I think that would be too much forhim to cope with (and I don't have a crate at the mo either!)

I can feel how disheartening it must be, when sometimes you think you have cracked it with him and then oh dear the kitchen is a mess again, I honestly think we would all feel very down in the dumps about it. It is hard work taking in an older dog who has not been socialised the way we would do it ourselves and to know a dog may well have turned out completely differently if we had had them from an 8 week old pup.

You seem to be doing really well with his socialising, Rough Collies are often quite aloof with strangers, complete opposite to your BC I guess really the two are like chalk and cheese, but you have worked on him with traffic as well so pat on the back for what you have done.

You have two problems with his toilet training, many owners find that their dogs have intolerances to certain foods infact some dogs almost anything will upset their tums, so you needto remember by your own admission which foods these are. That problem you can solve.

However as you have stated he also does toileting in the house when solid too, that is a different problem, as Lindsay has already pointed out this could be fireworks, it could be the rain. (Many dogs hate the garden when it rains ) He is obviously on and off sensitive about going outside to toilet, I'm also wondering if he is doing some territory marking here also.

Most dogs, especially when you have more than one have a couple of places in the garden which they frequent, (their own territorial toileting area) male dogs will often pee over a bitches pee too, does your RC use a particular place?  If he doesn't the next time he wee's in the house wipe it up with some newspaper or a cloth and place the cloth in a particular part of the garden, take him out and let him scent where his smell is, also do the same with his poo, pop it in a part of the garden and leave it there for a couple of days so that he can mark out his own territory, I've often tried this method with older pups and adolescents and it takes no time for them to encorporate the garden as their territory, and the place to go.

Continue to treat him as a pup with his training with praise and reward, (glad to see you are not chastising him ) he sounds to be pretty stubborn, but understanding why he is doing it will be the first steps to curing him, not knowing if it is territorial or if he is upset about something will be hard to determine, I agree that a behaviourist could well work wonders, but also understand finances can make a difference here, try the territorial placing of his poo and pee and see how that goes over the next 10 days or so.

You must feel very frustrated, I think I would be too, but try to understand there is a reason behind it, behind everything that a dog does, if one thing does not work try another, and the slighest bit of improvement is the way to go and hopefully you can keep building on it.

Good luck!  Let us know what happens, and you may well get other helpful hints too.

Thank you Carrington - excellent idea re the wee and poo transferral to the garden.  IF he soils in the kitchen again I will do this = brill!!!!
I know a bit of his problem is from me - my riding accident was pretty bad head injury which means I don't have the best of memories/thought processes, and this is why I am being ultra patient with him as I know I have some lapses - don't we make a grand household, there's only the BC who's perfect LOL!
I'll certainly update as and when, and thanks for taking the time everyone to give me suggestions.  It is much appreciated.
I'm not a novice dog owner and it's not the first time I have had a "dirty" dog, but it is the first time I've had this go on so long.  My very first BC took 12 months to learn housetraining but once the penny dropped she was incredible and never ever soiled in the house, even when quite quite ill, bless her!  I do feel a part of the problem is that i am used to bitches, it's over 30 years since I had a male to deal with and he was the sweetest collie cross I had from a pup.
My poor RC, my heart bleeds for him (despite the frustration) as I do feel he's been cheated out of puppyhood.  As and when I get him to play he only lasts 5-10 mins and then he goes and lies down!  Unlike the BC who will play for hours on end - yes, chalk and cheese, spot on!  But that's why I chose him, my BC would not have tolerated another like herself in the house!

Just by way of update - he was clean overnight bless him.  Big fuss made of him before we went out for our early morning walk, and he wee'd like a good un a few times whilst out.  Fingers crossed we start another clean period today pllllllllease!  

Since he does mess sometimes when you come home after a walk keep him on lead in the house this way where ever you go so does he. When he seems like he has to go do go out with him while on lead and give him a command word like hurry up- go pee which ever and praise/throw ball/ treat whatever- also taking him to the same spot all the time helps as well. Then when he has done his business allow time off lead, the point of this is so you also reckonsize his signs when he has to go. I def would take him back to as if he was a puppy and retrain him. This method worked with my friend and she got her dog at almost 2yrs old an outside dog which she house trained him this way. I also house trained Junior this way and he is clean inside my house still intact as well.

best of luck

I had this problem with a 6 y/o gsd bitch we  rescued many years ago. She had lived in a kennel her whole life till we got her, we were told she was housetrained and didnt find out till a few months later she had to be kept outside because she wasnt at all house trained. She wouldnt go to the toilet anywhere but the kitchen, where she slept at night. She had a bed in there and always went to the toilet near the door away from her bed and food. after a few months of trying to encourage her to go outside, spending hours out walking then leaving her in the garden for a few more hours, taking her out every hour on the hour and watching her like a hawk we tried something else. At this time we also did not have a crate which would be extremely helpful in my opinion for dealing with this problem. Instead we constructed a divide from some old wood and some wire mesh and used it to cordone off a corner of the room took away her bed and gave her a blanket on the floor that filled most of the space and had her water bowl in the space that was left, this left her little choice but to consider the area as her sleeping area and of course she didnt go otherwise she would have to sleep in it and no dog would want to do that, it only took a few weeks to gradually increase the area she was left alone in for her to consider the whole kitchen floor as her bed area, we were getting up a few times in the night to let her out at first to make sure she had the chance to go outside but she soon learned to go at an appropriate time and was greatly rewarded for going outside, she even learned to pretended to go for a wee sometimes just for the praise afterwards. It might seem a bit harsh to put your dog in a crate if you are not used to them but i always use crates these days and my dogs love thier crates, if you dont want a crate i would definatly confine him to one room when you cant be there to watch him as i know dogs dont like to go where they eat and sleep.

I can't help much, but I wonder if you've tried the JWB fish & rice? If he likes the fish that might tempt him to eat, and he might like it as a training treat too. JWB is great but not all the varieties work for all dogs - my friend's bitch is on the fish & rice as she has a slightly delicate tummy and once she bought the duck & rice by mistake, and gave it her thinking 'well it's all the same brand'. But there was a horrendous disgusting mess overnight! Might be worth trying?

hi everyone - have been reading this post with interest. I agree with all the sugestions about going back to basics on this one - i.e start training again as you would a pup. Again i would also thnk about taking your BC out on a line/lead to a certain spot and encouraging he to wee and then treat before you let him off into the rest of the garden.
I own westies and borders, westies are renowned for very sensitive tummies. Regarding the james welbeloved food - i have given this to dogs over the years but all my dogs really seemed to get fed up with it and i had lots of tummy issues! i was mixing other stuff in to tempt them to eat it. I now feed about 25% BURNS but also i feed alot, about 75%, of raw food, like raw chicken, eggs, minced beef etc and veggies - my dogs go mad for it - they literally jump and smile with such glee when i feed them now. My westies were always having tummy upsets but for 6 months i have had no problems. My point is even JAMES WB branded food isn't that good whatever the packet sayes for a dog with a sensitive tum. For treats i always used cut up cooked ham or cheese - never any of the bought dog treat things.