where did this thread go?
deleted because it was suggested that people who dont come under the title "puppy farmer" actually make money from breeding their dogs???

No, couldnt have been!!!!

Not knowing where the thread went Glenmoray but forgive my asking, is making money wrong? And is it wrong to be a breeder? Following on from that, if it's wrong to be a breeder then is it wrong to be a dog owner? Because one thing is certain, we cannot be owners if no one breeds. And if someone is going to breed then I would far rather pay a good breeder, even over the odds, than support the local puppy farmer or the local village idiot who thinks she only needs a dog and a bitch to make puppies!

Regards, John

Its the way its covered up, John, thats the problem.

And the thread was probably removed because of that. I personally will not pay any more than £1200 for a dog, thats just me.

There is nothing wrong with breeding, so long as it is done for the betterment of the breed. People who breed and have stud dogs do make money, that goes on to pay for showing, feeding, insurances etc etc.
There is nothing wrong with that. Its the big cover up that i find annoying.

GM

Of all the breeders I've met (and not all have stud dogs, remember) only the big-time commercial breeders actually make a profit. And they tend not to show or health-test ...

It's a bit like cars: you can buy a handmade car with lifetime warranty, or a Reliant Robin-type, for a similar price, and the dealer does a runner when something goes wrong with it.

I personally would not pay half of that! And when you look at the most puppy farmed breed, the Labrador NOTHING would be anywhere near that price! (With the exception of part trained or fully trained working gundogs, but it those cases you are paying for the work of a professional trainer.)

Regards, John

For a solid champion pedigree, health tested for all those generations i think anything between £850 and £1200 is acceptable, but then thats just me.

For someone to have a kennel of 20 dogs, show, stud out their lads and breed 4 litters per year there is a profit!
There is nothing wrong in that!

But then i only go for top pedigree dogs from people i can trust.

I don't know what breed you're referring to, GM, but a pup of my breed, health-tested and with an excellent pedigree and lifetime breeder back-up will set you back about £400-£500.

20 dogs? That's a pretty big kennel nowadays.

I have Akitas and they are not (yet) a ten a penny breed.

But i suppose, for £1200, put that amount again and you have import costs covered, change your holiday destination to the US insted of the Carribian and you could import.

Until i have the patience for that tho, im more than happy to pay those prices for health, temperament and be happy with my dogs.

GM

Just for the record I do not consider Labradors to be a "Ten a penny breed "and I resent the implied slight!

John you keep mentioning the amount of Labradors in rescue so they are ten a penny! It is not a personal attack on the breed, its how it is. Its a crying shame but it isnt likely to be any different for many years from now.

GM

If you have what appears to be your way and attempt to destroy the responsible breeders then it will be a bl$$£y sight worse!

John what makes you think i am trying to destroy the good breeders? I have no intention of doing anything of the sort!!

GM

Well you appear that way to me so I'll leave this thread for something more sensible where dogs are not thought of as "Ten a Penny"

lol bye then lol

It appears that way to me in the way you appear to favour large-scale commercial breeders over smaller-scale hobby breeders. I know who I'd prefer to buy from.

Why? because i buy from top breeders, from waiting lists over 18 months long and pay top prices for pups out of imported dogs? Or is it just because i prefer to pay top prices?
Or is it because i say things as they are?

Whatever it is,  I was warned that my opinions would not be valued here by anyone but me. But it is MY OPINION and im entitled to it.
Have a nice day
GM

<<I was warned that my opinions would not be valued here by anyone but me>>

Arr! I see all now! So you came here just for trouble then! Wow! Do you not have anything better to do with your top price (Not ten a penny) dogs?

Nope, you are wrong. The dogs have been out, had play time, had supper, are laid on the sofa watching TV with daddy.

If i were here to cause trouble you would have known. Its just obvious you cannot have a good old fashioned chat on here.

Never mind, its not my loss.

GM

As you rightly say, we're all entitled to our opinion. Denigrating other breeds is hardly going to endear you to people, but again, that's your choice.

Ok, So John didnt like the breed being refered to as ten a penny, yet he keeps banging on about how many Labradors there are in rescue. Contradicting himself a little isnt he?

Hipocracy isnt my thing.

GM

You didn't make it clear which breed you were referring to, so I assumed you were slanging all popular breeds. If you were sniping at one person in particular, that's even worse ...

So tonight I'm a hypocrite, the other night I was bigoted. I'm getting rather use to you children's insults these days. I did originally thing I was talking to an adult but I was wrong.

I ment all breeds that are over bred by joe bloggs with little thought to health, temperament, type!

Akitas arent that bad yeat, but they'll soon catch up if people dont stop back yeard breeding!

I was not sniping, im not like that. You obviously have some kind of problem here to get defensive the way you did.

I'll just stop posting here, let you have your board where newcommers and their opinions are not wanted.

You really do live up to you reputation here. i was hoping to prove people wrong at the next show i go to watch.

Goodbye

GM

deleted due to duplication

The reputation of not rolling over when people are rude, you mean? But when people are aggressive towards us (and our "ten-a-penny breeds"), it's only natural that we could become defensive.

By the way, there are plenty of the worst kind of 'backyard breeders' of Akitas, who are jumping on the bandwagon probably because the pups are so expensive. Their stock has a shocking reputation for aggression, and are not a breed my local vets' practices relish having to treat.

I was quite shocked at the number of Akita's bred as it is in 4 figures, this in a breed that only came to this country some 20 plus years agao, and large numbers of unregistered ones are bred so I am informed by folk who resue the breed.

My won breed at it's peak had 400 registrations a year, and we set up rescue then as there were litters being bred by puppy farmers (as there still are around a couple a year).  This breed has been in this country since 1870s.

Newcomers, GM? Not on this thread, anyway; after all, you've been posting on the Forum for nearly 3 months now. So that remark must just be another dig :rolleyes: ...

John
I am not particularly new to this Forum, although I do not reply very often as probably I lack the confidence due to my grief, but I have read postings for a good while now, and learnt quite a few good tips. Found the odd poster a trifle sarcastic but then that's life, no-one's perfect, including me. I do not find you a hypocrite or that you are bigoted, in fact what I have read from various postings and from your replies you are a very knowledgable man who always answers questions very fairly and in a gentleman like manner. I too was disappointed when this thread disappeared as it became very interesting and I think you answered one of my replies re: dogs in rescue homes. I think the original posting came from a visitors question about so many dogs in rescues and there being breeders who are breeding many pups. The last time I read this posting, a regular had stated that "even some breeders on here" do not do eye and health checks and I had wondered if this was the reason why it had been deleted.The rescue that I visit, I have never seen any labs, and I think I said they had many GSD's and Staffies. The last time I went, it seemed to be all Boxer dogs and to me they seemed very nice and perfect pedigree dogs (don't know anything about the breed though). Is it that they are now out of fashion, or someone with a job lot to get rid of? I think someone on this thread also mentioned about the Andrex ad with the lab puppy. And I think it was at this time too, they also ran a promotion of tokens on the toilet rolls to collect for a soft toy lab, which I'm sure would not have sufficed to the real thing for most children. Surely, toilet rolls sell well enough (well everyone needs them) without the use of a cute little puppy, whom no doubt, all the kids would have wanted one, and no doubt the parents would have bought them one to keep them quiet, (until it got older). Perhaps if this were to occur again we should all complain to whoever it is you complain to. I read in the paper about the Heinz Tomato Ketchup ad, where they put the tomato sauce in a water feeder for, I think guinea pigs and you actually see them drinking it (whatever it was??) Several people complained as it was cruel, as children would be doing it for their animals. I thought it had been banned as said, but I saw it on again tonight just before Emmerdale.
I just get so sad when people abandon their dogs because they cannot cope, because, of mainly their own fault. Ok rant over, thanks for listening.  Sue & Sasha

The Andrex advert has caused so much problems in Labradors as in fact, the 101 Dalmatian film did for Dalmatians. The only thing about Labradors is that it is an ongoing thing so has had a very long term effect. As I said somewhere else. Many years ago the most popular dog in the UK was the Yorkie, and later the GSD. Trouble is, TV is such a powerful medium that almost anything which appears on there in a positive way is likely to get in trouble through exploitation

Regards, John

It may be a breed specific thing.  In my breed the price of pups is the same regardless of parentage.  I charge no more for pups from my Group placing Champion bitch and our Imported (now Cha) stud dog.  The price of pups is mutaally agreed by most club membe5rs and ther is no compulsion but we agree to all charge the same, the going rate.

It may be a breed specific thing.  In my breed the price of pups is the same regardless of parentage.  I charge no more for pups from my Group placing Champion bitch and our Imported (now Cha) stud dog.  The price of pups is mutually agreed by most club membe5rs and ther is no compulsion but we agree to all charge the same, the going rate.

One of the most successful kennels in my breed normally shows four or more dogs at each of the Championship shows where we have Ccs,a dn the others where we don't plus Open shows.  There is no way they would cover anywhere like their dogs costs on four litters a year.  I once calculated a minimum of five average litters to cover their CC show entries alone.  I hasten to add that they don't breed four litters a year normally though think they may have done one year when they had various bitches all needing to be proved, from various lines and imports they were bringing together.  Normally they would bree one or two litters since they both retired.  they keep around 20 dogs, but have inveted hugely in their housing and welfare, and contribute to the continued existence of the breed in this country.  We have a Scottish breed club, and area once a hotbed of breed enthusiqasts, the sad fact now is there is not one active Scottish breeder left, and very few exhibitors.  It happens oh so easily when older breeders stop breeding and reduce their numbers.

You would get 2 1/2 dogs in my breed for that!  and they are not exactly common withonly 120-150 bred a year, but no reputable breeder advertises them as rare and tries to ask exorbitant figures for them.

I cant believe that your breed of dog (norwegian elkhounds) is that reasonably priced brainless. ????

Ive been onto your website and there absolutely gorgeous .http://www.barbelka.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

shelly.

If you looked at a crtoss section of breeds (not the very common or the durrently trendy must have) then that would be an average price in a broad range of breeds.  We want people to come into and become interested in the breed but not for wrong reasons, so pups are not dirt cheap and too easy to come by, but also are not feted as rare or so privey that they would attract those wanting an easy mark for money making.

The price of our breed reflects waht we feel they cost to rear bearing in mind the requirements of the breeds code of ethics and allowing a reasonable amount to offset breeders expenses in maintaining their breeding lines.

sounds good to me..

I think Elkhounds are one of the few breeds that is still true to it's origins little about them has changed over the 30 + years I have known them except that the breeders do more to ensure good health & they have kept & bettered the temperaments that were good to start with

You can buy an akita around here for around £300 I'm not saying these are good or well bred but if the G public want one & cannot afford the best then there are people ready to take their money for poor specimens

If you look at the popular breeds like GSD Labs Rotties Staffies there are lots of good breeders but also lots of bad ones

For example the lady that runs our GSD rescue occassionally breeds a litter(maybe once in three years)the dogs have all the healtth tests done & she does not charge the earth & a lot less that some show kennels for equally nice dogs, on the other hand we have the "lady"who has just mated an epileptic "biscuit"white longcoat bitch who has had no tests done(whites don't have HD you know)to her uncle who is a "champagne white sable"with no health tests done( of course) & charges & gets £600 a puppy her advice to the buyers is if you can't keep "it"this is the rescue telephone number ! & yes the "lady"makes a profit & lives off her dogs On the other hand our rescue lady only ever has to take back one of hers if the owner dies, but does take in all the puppies from the other"lady's"dogs on a regular basis at least 10 -15 a year !

If you breed to improve & maintain the breed who love you will never make money, because if you add in the hours spent caring for the puppies & dogs at minimum wage the cost quickly go into deficit without the cost of showing etc

Everytime I groom my dogs for a show it would cost me £30+ at a dog groomer ! the petrol, etc added on make it a very expensive hobby & I do not breed ! Even if I did they have such small litters(3-5 being the norm)& all the health tests MRI scanning the parents & puppies +heart, eye, hip & patella tests that should be done both before for the parents & the eye, heart, patella & MRI scan for the puppies eat into the price of the puppies(MRI scan is £200 + VAT)

I am glad you have a likeing for our grey furries :D

Brainless maybe in your breed they have it right, not over charging fair honest cost, for well bred puppies. ) Sounds like good value.

I mentioned prices on another post as my neighbour wants a bulldog but prices were around £1800- £2000  the couple litters I could find on my own research all had 3-4 plus puppies 3 our of 4 were not obviously show lines, 2 litters were breeders own  stud dogs. So I was honestly suprised at the price of them. I have never looked before so never knew.

I dont' understand the varying prices myself and a lot of the reason we hear generally don't add up to me.  I think people who invest heavily showing and bringing the breed on are certainly entitled to charge that bit extra but these are often the ones who do not  as their priority is the showing , the breed and the welfare of the puppies not the highest buck. I think show potential puppies that have also been run on for a bit are worth the extra also.

It is very sad when breeds become popular for the wrong reasons. I am in one as you know.

Yep sad it is, and of course your average dog owner may only ever have 3 or four dogs in their dog owning life, and with avergr luck even the badly bred ones may turn out a reasonable pet, so they don't know that they ahve been had, or that there isw a better and more responsible way to breed, and that if bad breeders couldn't sell their pups they wouldn't breed them.

I certainly do think that some show folk breed to boost their income - our breed ( Belgians) go for £600-800 depending on whether the breeder has had to go abroad to mate their bitch or imported new dogs. The average litter is 6-9 pups (our last one was 10) - quite a few well respected and succesful breeders will have 4 or more litters a year - they are  not keeping one from each litter - so not breeding because they want something new themselves - and only a small number of the pups are going to show homes - the vast majority go to pet homes - the only reason they can be breeding that number is to make some money !!

I even know of breeders who keep a second very popular and easily sellable breed in order to produce puppies that will supplement the cost of showing their first breed ( Westies and Cavaliers seem to be the favourites to do this with ).

I'm not sure how I feel about this - their pups are always beautifully bred and reared , have all the health checks, are well socialised and the breeders undertake to have any pup/adult back should the owners be unable to keep it. They have obviously invested a lot of their money in  providing very good facilities and on showing their dogs to the highest level - but it still 'feels' wrong to me .

However there is always going to be a market for quality puppies (just look at the searching board of Champdogs ) and the general public WILL go to pet shops supplied by unscrupulous puppy farmers if they cannot get their pup any other way

Yvonne

Glenmoray................TROLL!  posted here before me thinks, eh Glenmoray?
Dawn.

Personally I have nothing against this (their main breed not the breeding of the second breed purely for pet market).  I can't keep a pup from every litter I have bred.  The idea behind the litters I breed and do not keep one from is that a pup may go to a show or breeing home where another branch of my family may start someon elses breeding efforst off, so that down the line I have somewhere to go for studs to my bitches.  Also it is a tool to evaluate the direction I need/want to go.  If each bitch only had one litter it would teach me very little about what her breeding potential (traits she alone was passing).  I have so far bred 10 litters, kept out of 4 myself, and have bred A UK and Two overseas Champions from the other litters (last two litters are still youngsters).  There of the litters that I haven't kept a pup from have had pups bred on from for others.

I would imagine those breedrs who are travelling abroad to mate bitches etc are actually spending an awful lot more than they can make out of four litters (I would imagine most avoid breeding a fifth and getting involved with having to be a Local Authority registered breeder), at best they are offsetting their not inconsiderable costs, which is fair enough when they are making such an investment in the breed that they shouldn't go bankrupt doing it.